Meeting the Addictive Patterns of The Mind with Wisdom and Compassion
In this episode, Joe touches on the nature of addiction, not just to substances, but to thought patterns, emotions, and the constant desire to be somewhere else or to experience something different. He explores how this kind of mental addiction stems from our constant striving for change—wanting more, less, or something different—even when life is objectively good. Joe reflects on how mindfulness meditation has helped him develop a wiser and more compassionate relationship with his thoughts and emotions.
Joe describes the practice of meditation as a training that is counterintuitive in our culture, where people feel they must always be doing something to achieve a better state. He emphasizes that mindfulness is not about dismissing thoughts and emotions but about being aware of them without getting entangled in their narratives.
A transcript of this podcast can be found below.
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Meeting the Addictive Patterns of The Mind with Wisdom and Compassion
[00:00:18] Joe Clements: The way we ruminate on those thoughts and those feelings and just wanting to be different is, is, uh, it's an addiction in itself. An addiction to somewhere else. Something not arriving. This isn't This next moment's gonna be way better. If I set it up this way, it's gonna be way better. It's an addiction.
[00:00:38] Joe Clements: Right?
[00:00:41] Joe Clements: And when I speak to addiction, I'm not speaking to substance, I'm speaking to the way we get strung out on not being, you know. Always trying to become or not become, whatever it may be.
[00:00:59] Joe Clements: I say we. I'm really speaking of my experience, but I see some head nodding, and I've done enough groups that it's like, okay, and it's cool because it normalizes my experience, and like, because I've felt so alone in this shit so long, I'm like, fuck, am I the only one that, you know, just wants it to be different?
[00:01:18] Joe Clements: Even just a feeling of different. Something more, something less. You know? And, you know, even when life is good, it's fucking beautiful. I just built some steps down to the river right behind my house. And I got to jump in the river today and I'm still suffering. It's fucking crazy. Felt so good in the river and I'm like, Oh, this is, I even said it.
[00:01:48] Joe Clements: I'm like, Oh, I feel really good right now. And I get out of the river, and I'm sitting in the sun for a little bit, and, ah, the sun feels good, and I'm like, and it started getting too hot, and I'm like, oh, and then I started thinking about all kinds of shit, what am I going to do? Like, jump back in the river.
[00:02:05] Joe Clements: I'm addicted to the river. You know, it's not a bad thing, and it's like, but,
[00:02:13] Joe Clements: it's not a bad thing. But I, I, I, My experience, and maybe it's been your experience too, that this practice has taught me to, um, I guess, I mean, retreats for sure, longer retreats, but you know, face that fear of withdrawal.
[00:02:39] Joe Clements: Cause delusion is a hell of a drug. It's all good. We're swimming in it out there. You know, even when we know it is not all good, you know.
[00:02:54] Joe Clements: So maybe this is a place where we can just practice. And I want, I hope, I hope is a practice that we can be honest with. It is all good. It feels good. I've been practicing and doing things and sometimes it's just not all good. And this could be a refuge, a place, you know, reminder. All it is, is a reminder.
[00:03:14] Joe Clements: Okay, Thursday night, I'm going to sit with community. in practice with community because it's so powerful. But where the real power is, is when we take it from the seat here to the street, we can arrive. Yeah.
[00:03:35] Joe Clements: It's a practice. It's a training. I always, uh, you know, meditation is, is meditation in general. You know, it's difficult. It's difficult. Because it's so counterintuitive to one, I think our culture for sure is like, okay, you just sit and chill for a moment, you know, or not chill or just notice what's here.
[00:03:58] Joe Clements: And it's like, no, you got to be doing something to achieve something, to feel better, to take, take this, do that, and do this, you know, so, so counterintuitive. And what I like about mindfulness meditation in particular is, is, It's not just one pointed focus. It's, it's awareness of experience as it is. So we're not dismissing thoughts and emotions.
[00:04:26] Joe Clements: We're not trying to get rid of. And that, that bummed me out a lot when I first started practicing. Like, show me how to not feel or think this way, you know? But what I noticed over time is I got to know those feelings and those emotions And those thoughts, really get to know them, but not have a dysfunctional relationship with them as much.
[00:04:53] Joe Clements: Have more of a wise, compassionate relationship with the feelings that arise. You know?
[00:05:02] Joe Clements: But it took some time. It took some time for me to build that relationship. At first it was like, thoughts are here, okay, what else is here? Okay, I can see. Sun on that wall. I can feel the feet on the floor. I can feel this breath coming in and going out. Just doing that gives us moments of reprieve. Just a moment.
[00:05:24] Joe Clements: Get out of that matrix just for a moment. Okay. And then we're back up in it. Another moment. When we notice we're in a thought, that's really a moment of awakening. You noticed you're in a thought. Yeah. Hallelujah, rather than just like, you know, on the train to wherever you're in a thought. And that's the time that you get to practice returning.
[00:05:47] Joe Clements: Oh, there's that thought, repetitive thought, the memory, the plan. I got to do, I don't want to do. Of course that is here. What else is here? The feet, the seat, the sounds, the breath, an anchor. My dad's a fisherman, and when I say anchor, he goes literal anchor. He thinks of an anchor. And when I say anchor, I mean to the feet.
[00:06:12] Joe Clements: Not anger. Anchor. I was saying anchor one time in a meditation, when someone goes, I thought you were saying, like, turn towards the anger the whole time. Like, oh, well, if you can. How'd that work? It wasn't bad. Appreciate. But the anchor can be some place to bring our awareness. When the mind is drifting off like a ship drifting off to sea, right?
[00:06:42] Joe Clements: That's my image. It's like, oh, shit. It's like we throw an anchor down the feet. The breath. Something we hear. Something to come back to. That's it. You know? Home base. A refuge. Arriving. What's here? A thought is here. This is, this is what really tripped me out, like, cause the thought is here, there is a thought, and the thought is a plan, it's pretty specific, right?
[00:07:12] Joe Clements: It's a plan, it's a memory, it's a do, not to do. But the, the imagery, the story is not what is here. It's somewhere in the past, it's somewhere in the future, right? Does that make sense? So we're living in that when we're, It's not to dismiss that, because that might have some good information later when you have the capacity to turn towards that.
[00:07:39] Joe Clements: Oh, there is some past stuff that is, whoo. We can meet not just the wounds that we have, but the wounded parts of us. That's what's important. That's what's important. The part that was never asked, how are you doing through this? You okay? You know, or meet the stuff that needs to come with more space or the stuff that just pops up with more space.
[00:08:12] Joe Clements: Like, oh, not just reacting the, they say it's like the more we come back to feet, see sounds, breath. We start getting some space between stimulus, something that happens in response. But throughout our day, it's like shit pops off, we're like, ah, fuck. But the more we can Stuff's still gonna pop off, yeah?
[00:08:38] Joe Clements: Then we can, uh, get to meet it. More wisdom. Compassion. First and foremost for ourself.
[00:08:56] Joe Clements: I guess I do like to talk, cause I'm like, I don't know, I'm like, what am I gonna talk about tonight? If you really knew me, You would, you would know that, you know, I, I, I even, I, I started practicing meditation and mindfulness through the Buddhist tradition and don't, the one, the one true thing that was truly helpful for me was sitting in community and having like minded people.
[00:09:28] Joe Clements: That was like the truth of it. Teachings were kind of like, what the fuck are they talking about? But now, I, I kind of, over time, you know, even in my training to be a facilitator, you know, and it was like reading all the books and I just didn't really feel smart enough. But until the practice, until like in my practice, in real time, I would, oh, that's what, oh, so it's through experience and that's what I know to be true now is that's what the Buddha was pointing to.
[00:10:08] Joe Clements: It's don't, it's like, this is experiential. Don't write any of my teachings down. I don't want to get in the hole. So back to presenting things is that I really want to present this stuff in a practical way. A way that, you know, it's like you don't have to be anything to do this, you know. Doesn't take much.
[00:10:37] Joe Clements: You know, and if you want more structure, you know, uh, I don't have a lot of structure in this group in particular and other groups I do, but in this one, I just want to have a place, a place where you can arrive and maybe have some tools to give, uh, you know, set that container of presence to allow every part of you to arrive.
[00:11:06] Joe Clements: Even the parts that are addicted to whatever is out there. To whatever is addicted to not hear, right? Cause you know y'all are hearing me. Are you listening? Maybe be hearing. But there's all kinds of other plans going on right now, right? Anybody wondering if they put money in their meter? Or anything like that?
[00:11:31] Joe Clements: I think the meter thing is done for the day. I'm not sure. don't quote me on that though. So I don't know why I even got into that tangent. Yeah, no matter. Yeah. Uh, yeah.
[00:12:14] Joe Clements: Sometimes it can. And on the flip to that, can I respond to that? Because that's one thing, like I think this is kind of my point too, is I, I needed that structure. I needed that structure. whether it was for my recovery or for, you know, I needed it and it gave me the information to open up to other modalities, all this, these other truths.
[00:12:44] Joe Clements: And it's like, Oh, okay. So I think what meet by saying that it's like, whatever. spiritual modality, recovery, whatever it is, you do a lot of stuff. Everybody does self help stuff, yeah? Give me a hand if you do some self help stuff. My people, yes. Even reading the books, whatever it is. But what I've noticed, and for me too, is I don't have a lot of time to integrate that information.
[00:13:15] Joe Clements: Because I'm just trying to put it into play. This place, I would love for it to, you get to Let it settle in. Whatever things you're doing, some people express some stuff that they did outside of this room that was really helping them, you know, and I'm like, yes, that's beautiful, you know, and that's what this is a place where let that shit sink in, and if anything, some tools here that you can practice together, you know, bringing your awareness, setting that container, the feet, the seed, mindfulness, meditation.
[00:13:47] Joe Clements: And I. Said, and I do refer to, uh, Budha Dharma. I do, you know, 'cause it's a foundational tool for me. And it's, the simplicity of it is this, you know, the, the foundations foundational tools of bringing your breath or bringing your awareness to the breath and the body foundational tool of expanding to noticing how you are, uh, greeting each experience.
[00:14:18] Joe Clements: a wanting and not wanting, somewhere in between. Even having curiosity, contemplating this mind, you know? And what makes up, why, how are we getting so stuck in the stories, you know? Yeah, Forrest Foundation is like, pretty broad, get into that. But I encourage you to read the books, but come here and let it integrate.
[00:14:44] Joe Clements: I do want to read something, and it's back to this, uh, this place that was never addicted. Because that's what we're arriving to. And it's a, that's what this writing is called. The place that was never addicted. And that just, that popped, like, my attention. It's like, where, where's that place? I want to know.
[00:15:07] Joe Clements: Because I've been in recovery for a long time, but I'm strung out on, apparently, jumping in the river. Because that was like, today, that's my, uh, D. O. C. And this writing is Jeff Foster, one of my, I just, yeah, love this, this writer, teacher. But he writes, at the heart of every addiction, every addiction, Prosport, is the attempt, let's highlight attempt, to run away from ourselves, to flee our sorrow, self doubt, Shame, fear, and guilt.
[00:15:49] Joe Clements: Yeah? Anybody relate to that so far? There's more. To be somewhere other than where we are. Craving.
[00:16:06] Joe Clements: Suffering is the distractions. Everything. My phone, so strung out. Ugh. Music, so strung out.
[00:16:22] Joe Clements: And he continues to write, meditation then dismantles the core addiction, the addiction to somewhere else, to another moment, to not here. And we begin to bless the mess of our imperfect humanity with bare attention. Just attention, awareness, simple. Even if it hurts. Even if it stings. Even if it burns, we stay.
[00:17:11] Joe Clements: Sometimes sitting in the fire of our experience, yeah? This fucking, heh, I've said it before. My mantra. A lot of times I don't do mantras, but this one I do. Fucking ouch. Oh my god, it's a real thing. It's so painful. And we also honor,
[00:17:35] Joe Clements: we also honor, this is where flips it. I love this part and we can learn, I'm gonna put that in there to honor the part of us that doesn't want to stay.
[00:17:52] Joe Clements: We honor the part that wants to run the want. The part that wants to be a million miles away. The part that wants the drink, the drug, the cigarette, the contact, the excitement, the next high. We do not shame that part either. We see it and bow to it. It is also sacred.
[00:18:22] Joe Clements: It was really freeing to me. And I'll tell you why. Is I had a lot of shame about my behaviors. But what I realized is all those behaviors, like I've suffered from addiction, and again, always want to escape, and honoring that part, because those parts really just wanted me to feel better, and that's all I knew at the time, right?
[00:18:49] Joe Clements: It's all I fucking knew. It's all I could handle. I liked, it's the only thing that fucking worked. When it comes to substances and even, you know, but it's all just fleeting. But that is the same part of me that brought me to mindfulness meditation. It really is.
[00:19:17] Joe Clements: Curiosity. And, you know, it happened because, you know, what brought me is, you know, I was inspired by somebody, read a book, or had a friend, you know. It's how I was inspired to get high, right? Read a book, had a friend. Same thing, you know? Try this. Would this shit last? You know? And we can arrive. We can arrive.
[00:19:47] Joe Clements: And there is a place, we can arrive to that place that doesn't experience that craving. You know? Within the craving.
[00:20:04] Joe Clements: It's been my experience and I still crave, not exempt, not exempt. I'm in this human experience. Yeah. I like to call it a human experiment because I feel like the one key to this practice is curiosity. Ask questions. Ask yourself questions. Is this thought? Leading to anywhere that is liberating is, I'm really going to figure that out right now, you know.
[00:20:45] Joe Clements: Right now. So give yourself a little reprieve tonight. If not, if, if only for tonight, cool. When? And I, I feel like just y'all coming through the door, when? You already nailed it. The, when the thought came into your mind, or the reminder, it's like, oh yeah, it's Thursday or whatever, I should go to that group.
[00:21:07] Joe Clements: Nailed it. Beautiful. You followed that intuitive, like, meditation sucks, but I don't know, I need to go, there's something there, you know. I don't even know what this meditation is, but there's something. Listen to that. It wants you to feel better. A friend of mine, a friend of ours, we were speaking to like wanting to feel better and I'm like, yeah, unfortunately we need to learn to feel better, to feel better.
[00:21:44] Joe Clements: And that comes with time and there's, but tonight maybe just a reprieve, feel it, touch the edges of whatever's here, but come back to something that just feels good enough to rest your awareness. I'm gonna, we'll do a guided meditation and I'll guide you all, but you get to do you, you know, you can follow along with some simple suggestion to bring your awareness back to right here.
[00:22:08] Joe Clements: Cause your mind's going to drift, but it's just, it's not about when, how many times the mind drifts. It's like, what's the quality of returning? Are you judging the mind for thinking or can you, Oh, there's that thought, let's come back. Maybe you can find some rest, or just go right into some rest. Yeah?
[00:22:30] Joe Clements: Sound good? Enough of me. Um, so we'll take a couple minute stretch, bio break, and I'll ring the bell in about a minute. Find a place to, when you come back, if you want to, like, set up in the back, back there, I think you can hear my voice, if you want to follow the guidance, if you, go to some blankets. Get comfortable.
[00:26:56] Joe Clements: We'll learn this together. We'll fumble around together.
[00:27:33] Joe Clements: Hey Chris, can you shut that door a little bit? Please? I'm not going to ask Heather again. There's no way. They already did it once. Thanks buddy.
[00:27:47] Joe Clements: Alright, y'all. So just finding a posture that feels supportive. Good enough. Doesn't have to be perfect. You know, and at any time, if you feel like you need to move, you can move. You know, even if you're sitting and feel like you need to stand up, go ahead and stand up. You know, you get tired sometimes and you kind of want to not fall asleep, you can stand up or Or allow yourself to rest, too.
[00:28:19] Joe Clements: It's okay.
[00:28:26] Joe Clements: So as you find your posture that's sustainable, supportive,
[00:28:43] Joe Clements: just gently shifting
[00:28:50] Joe Clements: this outward attention, awareness,
[00:28:57] Joe Clements: inward. Noticing
[00:29:03] Joe Clements: what's here now.
[00:29:08] Joe Clements: Maybe there's some thoughts, some feelings, some energy in the mind and the body stirred up from
[00:29:19] Joe Clements: talk or conversation.
[00:29:27] Joe Clements: That was a moment ago.
[00:29:33] Joe Clements: What's in this moment?
[00:29:39] Joe Clements: Shifting our awareness to how we are, how we are experiencing this moment through our senses.
[00:29:57] Joe Clements: Feeling the feet on the floor. Body contacting the sea. Air contacting the skin. Connection.
[00:30:14] Joe Clements: Touch.
[00:30:27] Joe Clements: Noticing this breath. Just breathing. All on its own. No need to change the way you're breathing. It's just the breath. It does its thing.
[00:30:46] Joe Clements: The curiosity comes of this, where we notice the breath coming in, where we notice the breath going out.
[00:31:05] Joe Clements: This breath, this body effortlessly sitting, laying, breathing.
[00:31:19] Joe Clements: Can you allow yourself just to be held right now?
[00:31:25] Joe Clements: What would that be like?
[00:32:01] Joe Clements: Can expand this awareness, different sounds in the room, outside the room? noticing
[00:32:34] Joe Clements: taste and smell.
[00:32:43] Joe Clements: And yeah, of course, thoughts and emotions are here. Not a mistake doesn't mean you're doing this practice wrong. When you notice that thought that feeling that is the moment of practice. Practicing letting go softening and returning. Back to the feet see the sounds the breath.
[00:33:14] Joe Clements: And invite the mind and the body to rest. You've arrived. Welcome.
[00:33:27] Joe Clements: And if it's only for a moment before the next thought comes, that's okay. It's another opportunity.
[00:33:47] Joe Clements: And you get to choose. You get to choose where to rest your awareness.
[00:33:58] Joe Clements: Or at least, where you can shift your focus.
[00:34:35] Joe Clements: If it's a painful thought or memory, plan, validate it. Ouch.
[00:34:53] Joe Clements: We don't need to figure it out.
[00:34:59] Joe Clements: Get all tangled up in the why we feel this way. We know why.
[00:35:08] Joe Clements: Truly, it's not asking to be figured out, fixed. It's feeling. Maybe, it's just asking to be seen and held. Gently, lightly. It's
[00:35:54] Joe Clements: a pleasant thought or feeling that's arising. Acknowledge that too. But watch. You start craving, clinging.
[00:36:16] Joe Clements: You just acknowledge pleasant thought, pleasant memory. Plan.
[00:36:26] Joe Clements: Come back, feed, see the sounds of breath. Let that pleasantness sink into the body.
[00:37:30] Joe Clements: Again, not judging the mind for craving, wanting.
[00:37:49] Joe Clements: Of course, of course
[00:37:55] Joe Clements: that's here.
[00:38:40] Joe Clements: Maybe you need just a gentle reminder. Right now,
[00:38:49] Joe Clements: there's nowhere you need to go.
[00:38:55] Joe Clements: Right now, there's nothing you need to do.
[00:39:03] Joe Clements: Right now, there's no better you you need to be or become.
[00:39:12] Joe Clements: Right now, you get to rest on the shore of your direct experience. Feet, seeds, sounds, breath.
[00:39:42] Joe Clements: Just as these sounds come and go,
[00:39:48] Joe Clements: thoughts can just fly by like birds in the sky, or leaves gently floating down a river. And
[00:40:02] Joe Clements: you get to rest.
[00:40:11] Joe Clements: Nowhere to go. Nothing to do.
[00:40:19] Joe Clements: No one to be or become.
[00:40:44] Joe Clements: Waves of emotions rise and pass.
[00:40:53] Joe Clements: Just like waves crashing on the ocean.
[00:41:09] Joe Clements: And you get to rest on the shore for your direct experience. Feet, seeds, sounds, and breath. You're doing great.
[00:41:28] Joe Clements: Better than you can even imagine. As
[00:42:37] Joe Clements: we rest here, we can notice,
[00:42:43] Joe Clements: what is the mind itself and how it clings and pushes away every sound wanting or not wanting some kind of preference opinion.
[00:42:59] Joe Clements: If we let go of those opinions, those preferences can truly notice this coming and going
[00:43:18] Joe Clements: one sound into the next Sometimes space in between.
[00:43:38] Joe Clements: This breath coming in, going out.
[00:43:45] Joe Clements: Each breath new. Each moment new,
[00:43:55] Joe Clements: different.
[00:44:11] Joe Clements: Only thing that lingers is our stories, our opinions around what is being experienced. And wanting it a different way.
[00:44:27] Joe Clements: And there's nothing wrong with that either. It's the untrained mind.
[00:44:41] Joe Clements: Nothing is wrong.
[00:45:19] Joe Clements: These thoughts have the same ephemeral nature of coming and going, arising and passing, if we allow them. Noting, letting go,
[00:45:38] Joe Clements: validating,
[00:45:45] Joe Clements: returning and softening.
[00:47:23] Joe Clements: Maybe, can even reflect.
[00:47:31] Joe Clements: All the things that you have done to feel better,
[00:47:40] Joe Clements: unskillful or skillful,
[00:47:52] Joe Clements: without shame, but
[00:47:59] Joe Clements: just resting in this intuitive knowing that everything you need is right here.
[00:48:13] Joe Clements: Wisdom, compassion, kindness, joy, balance, is right here within each breath. Thank you. Within each distraction,
[00:48:33] Joe Clements: what's your relationship to this experience right now? Can you soften a little bit more?
[00:48:48] Joe Clements: And rest in this intuitive knowing
[00:49:00] Joe Clements: that you're enough.
[00:49:07] Joe Clements: You
[00:49:10] Joe Clements: belong.
[00:49:15] Joe Clements: That you're worthy. Worthy of your attention.
[00:49:24] Joe Clements: Worthy of your love.
[00:50:07] Joe Clements: Can you rest in the goodness that is you?
[00:50:26] Joe Clements: Sending some appreciation to yourself for showing up tonight.
[00:50:39] Joe Clements: Appreciation for that intuitive thought reminder,
[00:50:53] Joe Clements: following that intention to be here, right here, right now.
[00:51:31] Joe Clements: These
[00:51:36] Joe Clements: last few moments before I ring the bell.
[00:51:45] Joe Clements: Even see if he can follow this intuition right now. What the body needs, the body needs to move. It can move it a little bit. If it wants to rest and just hear the bell all the way through this instinctual you need right now,
[00:52:08] Joe Clements: notice where the mind's at. If you want to open the eyes. Look around, you can,
[00:52:19] Joe Clements: or just rest next few moments. Listen to the bell as it rings.